PEOPLE BEFORE PROTOCOL

'Lessons From A Lifetime Of Honor, Service & Leadership'
Exclusive Interview with Captain Brett Crozier
Featured in 'Innerviews'
Hosted by Allié McGuire

Brett Elliott Crozier is a retired captain in the United States Navy. A US Naval Academy graduate, he became a naval aviator, first flying helicopters and then switching to fighters. After completing naval nuclear training, he served as an officer on several aircraft carriers. In the spring of 2020, he was the commanding officer of the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt when COVID-19 broke out among the crew. He was relieved of command after sending a letter to Navy leaders asking that most of the crew be taken ashore which was subsequently leaked to the press. Crozier retired from the Navy in March 2022. He now lives in San Diego and works with veteran nonprofits, where he continues to serve those who have served.

ALLIÉ: All careers of service are noble ones. You chose to be of service with a career in the Navy. What is it that drew you to the Navy?

BRETT: Yeah, because my dad was actually in the Air Force, people would assume that that's where I would've gravitated to. He did a couple years in the early seventies in the Air Force. He wanted to fly, but he couldn't because he was colorblind. But that exposed me to aviation at a really young age that I think kind of planted the seed that I carried with me the rest of my life. So, I knew I wanted to fly airplanes, and I wanted them to be loud and fast. And so then, we lived up in northern California a town called Santa Rosa, and I spent a lot of time on the water. I was a lifeguard. I was a sailing instructor. So, I had this affinity for water and eventually the ocean and surfing. But I also wanted to fly. I knew that was something I wanted to do. And then, almost embarrassed to admit it, but in 1986, this incredible movie came out that we all know, it's called Top Gun. And that was something that helped me understand a little bit about, “Hey, you like being on the water. You like flying. In the Navy, you can do all of that. So, that set me down a path onto the Naval Academy after I graduated high school and then onto flight school. And it met every goal and aspiration I ever had about it. It was exciting, it was fun, and there was a lot of travel. You got to see the world. You have some challenging times, obviously, but I look back and am glad that the seed was planted many, many, many years ago. It grew, and I was able to do exactly what I wanted to do. I feel lucky in that regard. It was as fulfilling as I had hoped it would be.

Allié: Careers of service require sacrifices, but they also offer rewards. What was your hardest sacrifice that you had to make in your career, and then what was your greatest reward?

BRETT: So, the hardest sacrifice is always when you have to leave home and leave your family and friends behind. You know you'll come back. I mean, there were times when we left to head out to combat and we were war footing as a nation for many decades. So there was some uncertainty, but in general, you knew you'd come back, but you knew you were going to be leaving for not just a week or two, but months, maybe even a year at a time, and in some cases more. So, I always found those the hardest moments in my career, initially when it's just my wife and I and later when we had kids. But anytime you're gone and you're out there for 6, 8, 10, 12 months at a time, it's a challenge and you have to kind of move on and you learn how to compartmentalize and focus on the task at hand, so you're not distracted but those are always hard times. It was also equally rewarding when you came back and got a chance to get reacquainted and a chance to grow. They say in the military, your relationships outside of the military are really strong, if you nurture them well, or they become really problematic because it's hard to be gone that long. And I think I was lucky enough to pick the right person. My wife was super supportive, and my kids were super supportive. So, it ended up being that, I think, in many ways our life got stronger and our relationship got stronger even with that long absence. But it was never fun.

For any ship that ever goes to sea, it's that first day underway when you're leaving home for months on end. There's just that kind of depressing feeling across the ship. You're excited about what you're doing, but you've left your family behind, and it will be many months until you come back. I don't forget those moments. And I think, for me, the rewards were, as you got more senior, I was entrusted with a lot of things. It was both flying multimillion dollar helicopters and million dollar fighters, but also the leadership opportunities that were the biggest rewards for me. I was having so much fun doing what I was doing, but also getting those chances to lead, in my case sailors. Whether it was small groups to eventually a squadron size, it was 250 people and eventually an entire ship and an aircraft carrier with 5,000. Those were extremely rewarding moments. And not only are you doing well and being rewarded for your performance, but you also have a chance to make a positive impact. And I found those moments the most rewarding by far, as a chance to lead and make a positive difference on the folks you've been trusted to take care of.

ALLIÉ: I can't imagine what that must have felt like, especially when you're talking that scale. That’s wild to me.

BRETT: Yeah, it's like a city. I mean, an aircraft carrier is like a city with all regards. But it was also exciting and fun. Like I said, it’s rewarding when things are going well.

ALLIÉ: Let’s talk about lessons. A lesson your dad taught you was this. “When you borrow somebody's truck, you have to fill up the gas tank, clean it, and bring it back in better shape.” How did you apply this lesson to your own life and career?

BRETT: I think for my career and my life, what I learned from that was the importance of making a positive difference and to use that time to do just that. The reference to the car was if you're going to borrow something, make sure you return it in a better condition. But in the military, I saw that to mean that, you've been entrusted with an airplane or a helicopter or leading a large group of people. How do you make it better than when you found it? Now, in the military, we rotate quite a bit. We rotate our jobs every couple of years. So, you're not with some organization for 10 or 20 years. Even though I was in the Navy for 30 years, I served in 20 different capacities within those 30 years. You’re always rotating every couple years, and the goal is always to make a positive difference. You go into it with a mindset of, I'm not just here to keep the ship floating… I'm here to make the ship better or the squadron better, and leave it in better hands. That way, when you turn it over to somebody that's going to be equally capable, you can be confident and proud of the fact that it's in a better place. Maybe it's better trained, maybe it's better condition, maybe the crew's in a better place with their morale, or whatever it might be. But find those things to make a positive difference, and then turn it over to your relief in that way.

ALLIÉ: When you were the Commanding Officer on the USS Theodore Roosevelt, you knew there would be challenging days ahead but more rewarding days beyond them. What was your most challenging day onboard? What was your most rewarding?

BRETT: During that tour on the Roosevelt, like we said, there's 5,000 people. It's a city, and there's a lot of young sailors. I mean, the reality is your average age of a sailor on an aircraft carrier is about 22 years old. So, it's a young city and they're eager. You’re giving incredible responsibility to them, whether it's working on a flight deck, which is one of the most dangerous places in the world to work, or driving the aircraft carrier. I'd only been there a couple months, and I think that the hardest day, looking back, was actually Christmas Day that first year when I found out that one of my young sailors had taken his own life on the base.

The day started out exciting. We were getting ready for deployment. We had this big Christmas festival on board. It was this big deal. I actually brought a lot of my family on board. Then I got the call that one of our sailors that was just off the ship and living in the barracks had taken his life. I hadn't been there long enough to know him, but obviously, it was a reminder of the fact that we have a lot of folks on board and everybody can be struggling at times. There's going to be good days, there's going to be bad days. Particularly for that sailor, obviously, it was a bad day, and there's a lot of things that led up to that. But it reminds you of the responsibility you have as a commanding officer, as a captain of the ship. You're responsible for all of them. And I knew I wanted to do all I could to prevent things like that from happening. Because it was a large city, but it was also a large family. And I felt responsible in many ways, not necessarily for that incident, but I knew that I had to do all I could to prevent those things from happening and make sure we had the care available for sailors when they were struggling. So I won't forget that day. That was a tough day.

ALLIÉ: Absolutely… What was the most rewarding day on board?

BRETT: There was a lot of them, and that's the good news. Despite all the responsibility and the pressure at times, there were many, many rewarding days. I mean, the day I took over the ship, there's was lot of fanfare. There was a band and the whole pomp and circumstance you get that only the military can do so epically. That was an incredible day. Every time you the ship get underway, there are so many things that go into it, from an engineering standpoint to navigation to operations. Those in themselves were rewarding days. You'd do a big operation that might be high risk, where you're alongside another ship and you're transferring millions of gallons of fuel. One of the things was that at the end of the day, you were tired, you were exhausted in many regards, but you were also extremely proud. And I found the days that were the most rewarding were those when I could look back and be proud of the crew and all they had accomplished. Because it is such a large organization with so many young sailors that are trying to do great things, it's great to see it all come together.

I had many rewarding days. I remember my birthday when I turned 50, I got to go fly a helicopter. I used to fly quite a bit. Because I was a pilot, I got to fly. I could still fly a helicopter, and I could still go fly a fighter jet. I remember when I got to go launch off of my own aircraft carrier in a Super Hornet and go fly around the South China Sea. On my birthday, I got to go fly a helicopter and check out the ship. So, were many, many rewarding days. In fact, there were way more rewarding days than there were negative days. And when I look back, I almost have to think hard about the hard days because to me, they were trumped by the positive days and all the great things we got to do.
​

​ALLIÉ: I’ve not served in the military, but my husband Jack was. He was in the Navy. He tells me stories of times at sea when the right decisions, often hard decisions, had to be made quickly and confidently onboard to save the lives of his crew members. Let’s talk about the decision you made when COVID-19 came onboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt. The decision you made cost you your career as you chose your people over protocol. At that time, COVID-19 was only surrounded by fear and unknowns. How did you know the decision you made was the right one?

BRETT: It’s a great question. I mean, I think the reality is there's very little in life that’s black and white. And as the commanding officer, captain of a ship, there are times when you make decisions quickly, navigating or maneuvering the ship. There are decisions about operations that if not made correctly, will lead to some kind of tragedy. It doesn't mean the decisions are always black and white. You're just going to use your judgment, your experience, and your wisdom. When COVID 19 hit, and we were dealing with this now on board the ship, which is a confined area, we were watching this positive spread that was exponential in terms of it spreading across the ship. For anyone who whose been on the ship, it’s obviously close confines, and you can't socially distance. There's no way to separate yourself. And so, it was just going to get worse. It still wasn't a black and white decision though.

I think the reality is, you do the best you can, and you listen to the advice of everybody around you. We had complete medical teams on board. We had an epidemiology team on board that helped analyze information. We had experts in medical fields, supply fields, and engineering fields, and everybody's advising you. At the end of the day, the decision's going to rest with me, as the captain on the ship. And I was faced with a situation where I could just continue the status quo and hope that it got better. But as we know, hope's not a great strategy. Or I could do something where I feel like at the end of the day, I know I will have done all I could to protect the crew.

I go back to previous times in my career when unfortunate circumstances happen to ships, and I know there are captains out there who wish they had taken some action. I'm always someone that's going to bias towards action. I'm going to bias towards making a difference and not sitting back just hoping things work out. So,  in that case, it felt like there was a big log jam in terms of information flow and an awareness, not just across the Navy or the Department of Defense, but the entire nation, maybe the whole world. We were all trying to figure this out. I just knew that I wasn't willing to accept the risk to the crew as we tried to figure it out. And I knew that  by taking some kind of action, at least making everybody aware of the problem, then at least I’d know that everybody had the same information I did and they knew how concerned I was. I knew that even though everybody else out there wanted what was best for the crew, no one wanted it as much as I did.

And I knew then, as captain of the ship, if I'm responsible as a leader for my folks, if I wasn't willing to risk my career and bring attention to it, then I probably didn't deserve to lead them anyway. And so, I did what I thought I needed to do, but it wasn't black and white. I never felt like it was going to solve the problem. I just knew that it was going to at least tilt the needle in the direction I needed to get things moving. But I also knew at the end of the day I could live with it. I knew that whether it was a week, a month, a year, or 10 years… Now, we are going on three and a half years. I could still live with it. And I do. It wasn't an easy decision at the time, but I'm glad I made the decision I did to at least make sure we got all the help we could, because I didn't want to leave anything on the table. The crew was too important to me.

ALLIÉ: Well, thank you for making the decision that you did. I think it inspired a lot of people. It inspired me. Do you feel taking a stand like you did will lead to different policies or protocol that will put the safety of those who serve first?

BRETT: I hope so. I think the military is a learning organization. I think to be good in the business of war fighting, you have to be able to adapt quickly and adjust as we say. It's still a large bureaucracy. The Department of Defense is the largest institution we have in the US, when you think about active duty and civilians. So, it's hard to make changes. But I do think that they've learned a lot from it. I think we've learned how to deal with pandemics. I think that they've made changes. I also think that future leaders will look at the situation and hopefully in looking at and studying the case now think about how they might make those same decisions in the future or not. And maybe you'd be okay with the fact that, if you're going to do it for the right reasons, it's okay to make those decisions. If you're doing it for the right reasons for your crew, then maybe they're going to be inspired by the decision I had to make, and that can be my only hope. I had a son that was active duty, another one that is active duty now, and I do hope that whoever's leading them will be willing to take risks to take care of them. I mean, I hope that's the case now, not just as a retired naval officer, but as a father. It’d be important to me to know leaders out there are willing to take risk on behalf of their crew because that's what leaders are supposed to do.

ALLIÉ: Agreed. Let’s now talk about not just those who lead, but all who serve. Everyone who serves and transitions from military service to civilian life has a story to share. After 30 years of serving your country, you retired from the Navy. What was transitioning from captain to civilian like for you?

BRETT: I'm probably still figuring that out, to be honest. It's enjoyable. I mean, I loved everything I did, but I'm glad that I'm healthy. I'm glad that we're in a position where we can take on new challenges and new adventures, and I really like the freedom. I like the freedom to grow my hair a little bit or to travel when you want to and go surfing when you feel like you need to, and you don't always have that. I mean, that's true with any job, really but I've really learned to create a positive life and work balance in a way that I probably wasn't able to do in the military.

I strive to and I’ve tried to find those moments. It was important to me to have a good life and work balance when I was in. But now that I'm out, I have more free time to do that. So, that part I enjoy. Less than about 6% of the nation is serving or has ever served. It's a pretty small number. And I think when you come from the military where everyone around you is in the service, you don't realize it's still a small number, which means that there's a language barrier. There's a lot you have to explain, and a lot of people who just don't understand what you did. I mean, we know that people go out and serve, they go on deployment, or they go into combat. But I don't think the other 94% of the nation really understands what that means, and that's not a bad thing. I don't want them always worried about it. But it means that you have to help translate your skills. You have to understand there's a language barrier. I made a joke once at my last job. I made the comment that I was going to go ‘PT’, which in the military means you're going to go work out. It's physical training not physical therapy, which is what they assumed. They also just didn't understand the term. And this was a veteran focused non-profit. I just took for granted that the language that I was used to after 30 years wasn't understood by everybody. So, there's definitely a transition piece to it, but I find it exciting, adventurous.

I like that you can choose your path, so to speak. And in the military, you have to give up a lot of that. Your career path and what you do is often dictated. It certainly was for me, not just for my 30 years in the Navy, but for my Naval Academy time too. It was over three decades of time spent, almost all my entire adult life. So, I've found it exciting, adventurous, and challenging in some ways, but I'm still excited by the fact that I can choose my own adventure like those books we read when we were kids.

ALLIÉ: Yes! Those were my favorites. So now, even after retiring, Brett, you are still in service. Let's talk now about how you serve veterans with the work that you do.

BRETT: Sure. When you leave the military, you try to find another team to be part of, and there's a lot of similarities in the nonprofit world as the military. Nonprofits are focused on a mission, but they also don't pay a lot. So, there's a lot of similarities there with the military. But in that, I found an organization that I was able to come be a part of and run operations for -- a veteran focused nonprofit that helps veterans that struggle with mental health, homelessness and employment. And that's a big challenge, I think, that the entire nation is facing. And it's a way for me here in Southern California to get involved in community issues. Most of my focus in the military had been on a global scale, and I was worried about things in foreign countries all over the world. Now it's a chance to focus on some more regional issues or local issues, and I think that's important for all of us. I think people should get involved in their local community issues, whatever they might be, and find a way they can help out. I did it full-time in the nonprofit world, but you don't have to do it full-time. There are many non-profits that would love to have people just come by and help out, and I think it would make people more aware of those challenges. Homelessness is a big one. I mean, we see it all up and down the coast. It's magnified by drug problems that we have, and there's no easy solution. I spent the last year working with the organization. Now, I'm going to move on to the board of directors with Veterans Village of San Diego, helping guide them. And then I'm helping out with another group called STEP, which is Support The Enlisted Project, and that helps active duty servicemen and women and their families that struggle financially who might just be in a situation because of financial decisions they've made or challenges based on a high cost of living area, like San Diego where I'm at. They just might need a little bit of help to get over those bumps in the road to get through a month of payments or whatever the case may be. We provide grants to them and financial training with the idea that you don't come back. The goal is, we give you a little bit of money to help you get through this month or next, but then we're going to force you to take on some financial training to prevent it from happening again. We’ve had a huge success rate. 94% of them never need assistance again. That’s the kind of the proactive approach to preventing the homeless piece. So right now, I guess I've got a bracket in between the front end being proactive and helping folks that are struggling, as well as the backend of the problem when they're homeless and they struggle. And that's on the other side, the more reactive approach. So, that's what I've been doing for the last year. I find it rewarding and challenging in a way I hadn't expected. I’m inspired as well by the number of people that do this full-time or for their entire lives because they're passionate about some of these projects. Again, you don't get rich doing it, at least financially, but maybe you get rich and rewarded in different ways.

ALLIÉ: Absolutely. So not only do you enjoy serving, you also enjoy surfing. Let’s talk about this book of yours, ‘Surf When You Can’, and let's talk about surfing. How long have you been a surfer and what do you enjoy most about it?

BRETT: I think I probably started surfing up in northern California when I was a young kid, which is not a great place to learn to surf. It's cold. There are big sharks… It's really, really cold. But I was exposed to it. And obviously, in the military you move all over the world. There were times that I would be in San Diego or Hawaii, which isn't a bad place to surf. There were other times when I lived in Tennessee near Memphis, which wasn't a great place to surf, or even Italy wasn't a great place to surf either. So, it's kind of been sporadic, I guess. I've enjoyed it. I like doing anything outdoors, to be honest, whether it's hiking, camping, sailing, fishing or surfing. But surfing has been one that I enjoy a lot. It's for many reasons. One, I like being on the water. I mean, that's the Navy blood in me, I guess. I like to be out on the ocean to take all that in, even if the surfing isn't great, it's just nice to paddle out and be in the water. Maybe you have some seals or dolphins swim by you, as you wait for the next set to come in. I mean, the reality is when you're surfing, you're not actually standing up on a wave very long. It’s a small portion of it. The rest of the time you're either maneuvering or you're waiting. But I enjoy the solitude. I enjoy getting away from today where you're just in this data rich environment with cell phones and iWatches and information overload.

It's a chance to get away from it all because you generally don't have that out there. If you're out on a wave with a cell phone, you're probably doing something wrong. I enjoy the ritual aspect too. I have three boys, and they've all surfed at times. My wife surfed when she was younger. So when we go to the beach, it's fun to load up the car and go check out the surf, egg each other on, and then get in the water. That’s been part of the fun too. As I get older and the kids are getting older, it's become a family activity for us to spend a couple hours. And that's enjoyable.

​I think as a leader too, I found that… This is why it became the title of the book. The book is really based on everything I learned over the last 30 plus years of my Navy career. It’s really about leadership in life. There's only a small chapter on the Roosevelt and Covid. There are many things I learned along the way that helped me make the decisions I did when I was on board the Roosevelt. One of those is surfing. I think it’s important for anybody, particularly a leader, to find that time to get away and think… And maybe even think strategically about the big picture of where you're trying to go as an organization or where you're trying to go as a ship. As a company, where do you want to be in the next couple years? And I think in today's environment, we don't give ourselves enough time as leaders to do that. We need to find ways to do that, and it doesn't have to be surfing. It can be hiking or skiing or yoga or whatever the case may be, but a way to get away from all the distractions and think the big thoughts. I think that's important. As a leader, you might be the only person looking down range on where the organization needs to go, and you need to provide yourself time to do that. So, surfing is one of many things I try to capture in this book, but it's not a book about surfing. If you're trying to learn to surf, you should read that chapter. And you should probably go take a lesson somewhere because I'm still a very mediocre surfer. But I enjoy it. No wave's the same, and I always learn something. I always have a good experience. No bad day gets worse by surfing, as they say.

ALLIÉ: That's beautiful. So in your book, again, of lessons in life, loyalty, leadership, in all the many lessons that are shared, is there a specific lesson that you say, okay, if you're going to remember this one thing, remember this?

BRETT: One that stands out that I try to share with people is when in doubt, be kind. I think there's this misunderstanding that by being kind, you're showing weakness. I think being kind is an attribution of strength. I think when you're strong as a leader and as a person, you're actually in a better position to be kind. And by being kind, in many ways, you strengthen your own position. It’s not a reciprocal thing. It just means that, when you can help somebody out, it should make you feel good about yourself. It’s also a chance to help them out, and that makes the organization stronger. It makes your community stronger. I think many people sometimes misinterpret that… But when you're strong and can stand in a position of strength, you can magnify that. In the military, we're in the business of war fighting. I mean, I learned how to drive ships, run big organizations, fly helicopters, and fly fighters. I did some pretty cool things. But I always liked when I could be kind to people. I found that was a good kind of balance to this hard edge, very strong lifestyle that you lead in the military. A chance to be kind… I think that we can all benefit from that. Know that it's not weakness to be kind. It's actually strength. It makes you stronger.

ALLIÉ: Awesome. So I do have one more question for you, and it is this… For those who have a hard decision to make and they're trying to make the right one as best as they can, what advice do you have for them?

BRETT: Be able to make a decision you can live with, not just in the moment, but in the future as well. And if you remind yourself of the importance of not just right here and right now, but the long-term impact of that… I think that applies to leadership, it applies to governance. It applies to communities. We all want to solve problems right now, but how do you make a decision to help solve a long-term problem? Again, life is not black and white. We know that. There's a difference of opinions and everything else and so there are no real easy decisions in most cases when it comes to being a leader faced with these kind of challenges. But I think it’s make a decision you can live with. Make a decision that you know that 10 years from now, you're going to be okay with. Make the best decision you can.

If you're not one to risk your job as a leader, then you shouldn't be leading anyway, because at the end of the day, that's just your job. And in the military, it's a career and it's a calling. I get that. But at the end of the day, leaders are there to take care of people, to make an organization better, to empower and inspire and motivate. And if you're not willing to take a risk to do that and make sure you're doing it on their behalf, then you're probably not the right person to lead. So, don't be afraid of that. Know that if you make the right decision, it doesn't matter what happens with your job. At the end of the day, you're going to be able to live by it. And those were things that, obviously, I went through in my particular situation. It was knowing it wasn't a black and white. But at the end of the day, I feel like I could still live with that, and I made my decision for the right reasons.

At the end of the day, it was just a job that I was willing to take risk with because leaders are there to take care of people. ∎

---

Follow Captain Brett Crozier on Instagram: @surf.when.you.can